Catching Idle Butterflies

God vs Religion

Following is my response to Mavis Moog ’s response to my response to her original question in my blog the other day. Did that confuse you enough?

Her text is in blue, mine in black. I added most of her text so you don't have to go back and forth between our blogs as I go through point by point.

I added a document "Invalid Item"  with the specific scriptural passages I’m mentioning here for your convenience. They are referred to as Reference A and B. My response is long enough as it is without adding them in here.

I am suspicious of the doctrine which tells believers that their reward will come in the next life, or in Heaven. Historically this has been used, I fear, to keep poor people in their place. It makes them content with their lot in life, as this life hardly matters to them, it is the next which is all important - that is eternity. This worldy life is a mere flash in comparison.

The reasons for believing this may come from the scriptures, but as we all know, the scriptures have been in the possession of powerful religious leaders for many centuries. The message has been massaged to strengthen the grip the religious heirarchies have on their subjects. I therefore mistrust these lessons. They seem more about making people put up with despair and misery and little to do with enlightenment.

Let’s not confuse religion with God, for they are not the same. I cannot stress that enough! I could write that a thousand times more, but I’m hoping once is enough. In fact if you read the Gospels (Reference A), you will see Jesus despised religion and the religious leaders of the day, and what they were doing to the very people you speak of. For anyone to use the genuine faith of others to further their own power, if you read Reference A, God has no mercy for those people who were, and are, not merciful to those they have power over.

One will find some of the most devout believers in some of the world's most deprived areas. Often in very poor, famine and war-torn places, religious education is all that's on offer. Missionaries do some excellent work, helping communities find fresh water, providing medical essentials and building and staffing schools. It is hardly surprising then, that some of these poor, beleagured people have a faith which in Vivacious' words, make many, more fortunate believers, look like blind children still crawling. Is this evidence of the truth of the idea that the reward for this life's hardships is eternal joy? Or is it merely evidence of the power of wishful thinking?

There is no doubt that such faith in happiness to come in the next life must be very comforting for someone who cannot see any happiness in this one.

Some have argued that such faith does have an undesirable side-effect. In Zimbabwe, for instance, many opressed, dispossessed, starving and bereaved Christians find great solace in their faith. I do not want to take that solace away from them, but it could make them less able to be active against the cause of their misery - namely their tyranical president, Robert Mugabe. Is it good, that a population suffer, while their tormentor lives his despotic life, virtually unchallenged? Isn't it possible that faith in these circumstances can be an agent for evil - albeit indirectly?

Never once in my response did I suggest we must do nothing to alleviate despair, to sit back while others starve, or to allow a despotic government continue to abuse its people. In fact, I and other commentators to my entry stressed the opposite. It is the duty of those with much to help those with little. However, though we may try, we cannot stop all disease, famine, or the perpetuation of evil from power hungry people. But because we may not ultimately succeed, that does not mean we shouldn’t continue to try. Who knows the people we can save by never giving up?

I do not believe in the concept of evil - but that is another subject entirely. I would like to say though, that often, bad things happen because good men let them happen.

My sister suffers with Multiple Sclerosis. At the age of 59, she is unable to walk, has permenant pain in her limbs and face, and finds her mental health under threat too. She has always eaten carefully, not smoked or drunk alcohol and has taken regular exercise, yet she finds her life in tatters due to illness. She is not a religious person but she is not as firmly committed a non-believer as I am. The most painful aspect of her illness, in many ways, is her bitterness at the injustice of it.

When she asks, "Why me?"

I have only this to say to her, "Why not you? Who would you rather it be instead?"

This is not an original point, but it makes sense to me. Illness is not a personal insult, it is a random event and does not only afflict bad people or avoid good ones. Asking why one has been struck down by such a horrible disease is like asking why the sun comes up - it is just a fact of life. We understand some facts of life better than others, but they all happen because they can, and for no other mysterious reason.

My sister is in danger of making the remaining years of her life even more miserable than they are already by allowing herself to be dragged into a bitter depression. She will not take medication to help her with her despair, and she does not have a faith that tells her she will be rewarded in Heaven. I would prefer she turned to God, than continue in this negative and destructive path, because I want her to gain mental strength so she can have some joy in her life. In this sense, it doesn't matter how we cope with troubles in our lives, as long as we do.

The problem for me, is that faith is a double edged sword. On the one hand it tells the believer that unmeasurable joy is waiting for them, and on the other it tells them that God keeps that joy to himself, until they have proved themselves worthy. Or else he gives worldly joy to some and not to others.

Where does it say God keeps joy to Himself? It is available to anyone at anytime. It’s a matter of taking it. I’m sorry about your sister, but you are absolutely correct in that turning to God will give her that joy and peace you speak of. How then is that God holding joy and peace close to His chest, reserved for only a select few?

Where also do you get the idea one must prove themselves worthy of God’s love? No one is worthy.

So how then do we “gain” God’s love and mercy? The answer is short and simple: Faith (See Reference B).

Vivacious says that God is not a magician. He has given men free will, and it is up to them to make the most of what they have. Then he tells them not to despair when they can do nothing to help themselves, because he will make them happy in Heaven. Why not now? How does God see starving babies and diseased innocents as part of his great plan? This seems perverse and is a well known stumbling block for many who try to follow religious life-styles.

I never said God will only make people happy in Heaven. I’ve stated time and again, both in my response here and in my entry that He gives joy freely to all who accept Him. Yes, in many cases we have to accept our lot in life. As you said, some things are beyond our control. That’s not to say we should never try to improve that lot or help others to improve theirs. To answer your question about “starving babies and diseased innocents as part of his great plan,” it is not and never was. Do you honestly think God does not weep, that His heart does not break when people suffer? So, why, then, does it seem He sits on his throne above it all, doing nothing? He’s not doing nothing. He is working through you and me to help those suffering.

Everyone knows God is a magician, he is all powerful and omniscient. Isn't that magical? He created everything from nothing, and has a great plan for all his children, isn't that magical? If God is not a magician, from where comes his power? And if he is a magician why does he not help those in desperation - other than promising them it will soon be over - a promise that no one has ever seen fulfilled?

You see, it all sounds like an elaborate confidence trick to me. Established religious authorities use this philosophy to increase their worldly power. I am deeply cynical of the motivations of a religion which tells its followers that spiritual health is far more important than physical necessities.

This is why I say God is no magician. It implies a confidence trick, as you call religion and religious leaders who blind needy people into doing as they want with false promises to increase their own power. I’m glad you’re “cynical of the motivations of a religion which tells its followers that spiritual health is far more important than physical necessities.” I must restate, do not confuse God with religion. If a religious leader states such whilst asking something from the poor to pad his own pocket, then you are right to be leery of him, as well as speak out against him. But speak out against the man, not blame God for his actions.

I will say, however, spiritual health is far more important than physical necessities. One is fleeting, the other is forever. And if a person has spiritual strength, he or she can endure anything, and I mean anything! I’ve read books on people enduring the most horrific tortures, but because of their faith in Jesus Christ, they not only endured, their joys increased, even at the moment of death.

In the heirarchy of needs, food, shelter, physical health and family come first, only then can men have time to spend on philosophising. The organised religions short-circuit this basic human requirement, and tell their followers to jump straight to faith, because that will save their souls, and in the process stop them asking awkward questions about power and influence.

I could not agree with you more about this! God requires we constantly search, to ask questions, or as the Bible says, “test the spirits.” Not all teaching is good teaching; man is fallible, easily susceptible to the siren song of power. I love the quote by Galileo Galilei: “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”

A non believer sees suffering as a random state of affairs. It is not the result of any wrong-doing or Gods' displeasure. It is not even a test to be over-come in some protracted game. This also means it cannot be dismissed as a temporary hicough. One must strive to escape misery, starvation, opression and war, if one is ever to be free of them. By facing ones troubles and being active against them one can make a great deal of difference, not just to ones own existence but to the general well-being of the population of the whole world.

I couldn’t agree with this more, which then argues the first part in that only non-believers see things this way.

War would be less commonplace, because it would be seen as the destructive and senseless activity it is, rather than a Jihad, crusade or fight against evil. Famine and disease could be tackled more effectively, because people would strive to end the causes of these disasters, rather than accept them as God's will.

War is never God’s will! Please understand that. It is Man who starts and fights wars, and always has.

Natural disasters, like volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, hurricanes and tidal-waves would still happen. Man can do little to stop these, but at least those who lose their loved ones in this way would not be left bewildered, wondering why God did this to them.

While some religions and religious leaders (read Pat Robertson here) claim that natural disasters take place due to wrong doing on that particular region’s part, they are either mislead or the worst liars. I want to strangle any person who claims this because it attempts to place a terrible, ill-placed guilt and despair on the ones who fall victim to the disaster. Shit happens sometimes, but again it’s up to us who haven’t suffered to help those who have.

My argument is that non-belief may take a certain sort of strength which is not easily achieved if your life has been fashioned by offers of eternal reward or threats of never-ending damnation, but it is comforting. It encourages innovation, self-reliance and co-operation in a way religion has not been able to, so far. It banishes paranoia and blame and can carry this population into a new age of harmony - one that could save the world for the benefit of all.

Here we’re getting into political ground, and I don’t argue politics. I will say, however (like you thought I wouldn’t, right?), I find more strength in those with true faith (not those who try to use God to solve their problems for them) than those without any faith. They can take life’s punches better, because they know God is with them to help them through, both in this world and the next.