Fragile Outline

1. Characters:
Krim Hagliff - Main protagonist. First name is pronounced just like "Kim" but with an "r" in between the K and i. He's a successful tech guy with a propensity to sleep around. But he's a genius with the logical (aka math, reasoning, etc.). This is important because Krim is supposed to be the type who's flawless when it comes to things he doesn't care about. The things he cares for he can't really protect; he freezes.
He's a bit of rebel and has the self confidence to back it up. Basically he ignores public opinion, broods on occasion, and quips a lot. Somewhat of the Nietzschean archetype.

**recurring theme for Krim: He's calm, cool, and collected throughout most of the "ordeal"...basically he's thinking "I'm going to save the girl using reason and rationality without really giving credence to the fact that he's fighting a mystical demon.

Gwen - Love Interest and protagonist. Her occupation is a writer who's just written a very popular book. She's Krim's ex (ex-fiance it will turn out) and really the only girl that's ever really won Krim's heart. She had a sister, who died before the story. Gwen turned to Krim for comfort, but he crumbled under the pressure. One night he walked out on her while she slept. He sailed around the world. She found out from the college registrar's office that he left. She turned neurotic and after bouts with depression she slits her wrists and ODs on purpose. She regrets the decision almost immediately. As she's dying she wakes up somewhere in between life and death - a limbo of sorts. The main bad guy approaches her and offers her her life back with her wildest fantasies - to become a successful writer - for a decade, after which he will possess her body.

**recurring theme for Gwen: For a majority of the story she's going to be Krim's opposite in self confidence. What I mean, where Krim is consistently self-assured, Gwen has ups and downs. With Krim she's confident and banters (with the best of them lol) but with her current fiance -Gerard- she's completely submissive. In effect, she's neurotic.

Gerard - A foil to Gwen and an antagonist in his own way. He's not meant to be a big character really. Rather he's a foil for a couple purposes. He's engaged to Gwen when the story begins and is a second rate French writer. His fame is basically perception over substance. He's unusually well dressed ( for a writer lol). He plays to the crowd very well but cheats on Gwen whenever convenient. In essence he uses her to further boast his literary credentials.

**Purpose: Gerard's a foil for Gwen and Azarkin. First, when Gwen's around him her behavior is extremely submissive, as opposed to when she's around Krim. His second purpose is that I use him to demonstrate the limbo where Azarkin approaches people and what exactly happens there.

Azarkin - He's the main bad guy. He's basically as old as the Earth. There were 14 Godly people. He was one of them. He tried to rebel against them and almost succeeded. He was beaten back and punished. He was essentially thrown in an underground cave somewhere in Africa. He cannot physically leave the cave.
His brethren left him with 3 powers. (1) He can access the Inbetween -that instant just before a person dies. (2) He can provide any choice of life the dying wish to have. and (3) He can create doppelganger-type souls to replace with the souls of the dying who accept his gifts.
He has a few limitations: (1) He can't physically leave the cave, (2) He can't lie, (3) He can't bring back the dead (only the dying); for example, if you told him you wanted to have dinner with Ghandi, Azarkin wouldn't be able to make that happen because Ghandi is long dead.
Azarkin wants his freedom. He wants to get out of the cave (think Man-in-Black from the TV show LOST). To achieve this end he must have control of the Nietzschaan/Human Superman (confident genius type), and he can only locate these sort of men when they are in the process of dying.

Michael - He's one of Azarkin's henchmen. I'm not sure if he should be killed off early on or have him lingering around (To Azarkin, Michael is a dime a dozen, either way).
**Purpose: He brokers Azarkin's arrangement for Gwen. He also murders (sends Gerard to limbo) to open up Gwen's path to get back together with Krim.

2. Introduction:
A guy (Krim) shows up to an old flame's (Gwen) book signing. They haven't seen each other in about 10 years and he basically offers to take her out and reconnect. Although she's initially reluctant she agrees. But, Gwen has a secret. The break-up left her in a pretty bad emotional state that has left her quite neurotic. 8 years ago she attempted suicide but when she changed her mind it was to late - in effect she made a deal with an ancient, devil-type figure (Azarkin/Father) for renewed life and professional success. The deal is good for 10 years after which she loses her soul. The "devil" himself is trapped and need Krim's soul to free himself. Thus, Gwen is offered a clean slate if she seduces Krim, whom she still blames. Yeah, almost forgot, I'm trying to give the story a film noir-ish feel.

3. Character pictures:
For anyone interested to see who/what the characters are to resemble (aka movie version lol):

character pics...  () Character pictures #1803564 by Wrath.of.Khan

4. Book Structure
Part 1
-Gwen agrees to Azarkin’s deal – as offered by Michael – to seduce Krim and convince him to give up his body/life.
-So she gets back together with Krim under these pretenses but falls madly, truly, back in love with him.
         -In this process their past together is revealed in its entirety.
-Gwen reneges on the deal and as she is waiting for Michael to kill her (as punishment), Krim interrupts – finds out the truth.
-Krim kills Michael?
-Krim and Gwen agree to work together and to save her soul they must find and kill Azarkin.

Part 2
-Gwen and Krim search out Azarkin’s hideaway.
         -They discover the only way to kill Azarkin is to stab him with a mystical knife.
         -They manage to find the necessary knife.
-As pressure mounts, Gwen and Krim fight with each other, clearing up their issues.
-Krim locates Azarkin’s lair somewhere in Africa and the two set sail (technically they take a private jet).

Part 3
-Gwen and Krim arrive and hike through Africa on their way to Azarkin’s underground lair; they have their own personal climax and then kiss and make up, dedicating themselves to killing Azarkin.
-They reach Azarkin’s underground whereabouts, where the final battle between Azarkin and Krim takes place.
-Krim stabs Azarkin but finds out that he and Gwen misinterpreted the ancient scrolls; one of Azarkin’s own doppeldaggers must be the one that stabs Azarkin with the knife!
-Krim is shocked to find Azarkin standing in front of him after being stabbed.
-Azarkin pull out the knife and stabs Krim a couple times, sending him into a limbo of sorts.
         - This inbetween (limbo) is the “realm” between living and dying where Azarkin manifests himself to anyone he chooses to.
-Azarkin forces Krim to accept a deal with Azarkin, but as punishment Azarkin states that he will collect Krim’s body in 72 hours (Krim has one weekend to spend with Gwen).

The Ending
-Krim pretends to be victorious and flies back home with Gwen who tells him on the plane that she doesn’t feel any different. Krim reassures her that they won. Azarkin is dead. She accepts him at his word.
-They go to bed on Sunday. He wakes in the middle of the night to leave. She wakes up too and tells him that she doesn’t believe him, but that it’s OK if he's failed to save her. She’s made peace and is willing to die.

-Krim knocks her out with alcohol and walks out, leaving only a note behind.
This is pretty important because the two come full circle. Krim abandons Gwen yet again. Although the motivations are different (first time he didn't know what to do, this time there's nothing he can do), the result is the same.


RICHARD RUTH::
Overall this sounds like a really great synopsis, stories like this thrum at my religious heartstrings (as a matter of faith I do believe that fallen angels exist and move to tempt man), also a suspense like this leaves a great deal of potential for the story to develop as either a thriller or mystery. What direction do you plan on taking with this? Are there angels and teshuva involved? Is it more of an erotic novel? I would love to see how the story plays out in your mind!

SAT::
My first thought to add to this is: What if Michael is killed at the beginning and is replaced... by another Michael (you mentioned they were "a dime a dozen", so I wondered if you would be tempted to take the comedy angle and literally make them/him so).

I must admit that I am finding the ending a little difficult to deal with. I know happy endings are not always they way... but, I don't know that I love the thought of Krim walking out on Gwen again. Perhaps they could be a little Romeo and Juliet-ish and die together? I don't know, just throwing it out there. I can deal with one or both dying... but the abandonment seems like a real let down (just my initial reaction... will see where the outline discussion goes with this).


WOK::
Hi Soulhaven. Killing Michael off early is a possibility that I'm very much open to. The way I envision it is that I need a henchman to, among other things, be tortured primarily by Gwen at some point during part 2 of the story. The henchman is going to be a way for the two protags to get info about Azarkin. The torture scene is supposed to be similar to a scene from the first season of LOST (the tv show) where Kate confronts Sawyer who has been tortured by someone because they think Sawyer has stolen something. When Sawyer doesn't confess, Kate tries. Anyway, at the start of the scene Kate takes this very "defeated" posture. In the show the two characters make out. In my scene Gwen tortures the henchman because she is frustrated that he's not providing any specific information to Krim. The point of the scene is to have Gwen seem frustrated (she does feel bad about everything that's happening) and Krim pulls her off the henchman so that she doesn't have torture on her consciousness.

I could have both die. That's a dark horse scenario really. The way that I have the ending scene in my head is basically K & G go to sleep Sunday night. Krim get out of bed at like 3 AM to go and die essentially. But Gwen, who knows he failed although he's constantly reassuring her he succeeded, also gets up and confronts him. He knocks her out with alcohol (cliche, I know), then puts her back in bed. He leaves her a note saying something like he's sorry and so on. I intend to show him journey back to the location of the cave but I don't intend to show him walking inside. This is basically taken from a movie in the 90s called The Brave. Johnny Depp plays a recently released convict who agrees to make a snuff film in order to provide for his family. The ending scene is Depp walking into an elevator to go to his death. The elevator door shuts. The movie ends.

The way I have it in my head, Krim travels to the cave location and the chapter ends. The last chapter is basically Gwen abruptly wakes up, feeling different, her back arches as she takes in a huge breath, notices the note - doesn't really read it because she realizes what happened, and turns onto her side and cries. I should mention that after Krim loses his fight with Azarkin but tells Gwen that he succeeded, Gwen never quite believes him because she doesn't feel any different. She still feels captive in a way.

Also, quickly, I'm playing with the idea that Krim can't quite lie to Gwen. She sees through him. His eyes give him away, basically. I think it could be a worthwhile dynamic especially at the end. She doesn't buy it when he says he killed big baddie and she also doesn't feel free. She knows he failed but isn't exactly sure how, but she appreciates that he tried so she plays along and thanks him. Sunday night when she wakes up and confronts him she tries to talk to him, to absolve him - never knowing that he gave up his own life, etc., he still doesn't tell her he bargained his life for hers and knocks her out so he can leave.

Finally, when you say <but the abandonment seems like a real let down (just my initial reaction... will see where the outline discussion goes with this).> do you mean let down like "not worth the wait" or let down as in making the reader feel sad. I'm obviously going for the tear jerker moment, which is very much out of my writing ability lol !

PS my apologies for the overly long reply!

SAT::
Dude, you know what, WOK? I'd love to know the answers to Richard's questions before I start in on my own discussion of your outline.

It'll help me decide, too, what I think of your ending. Smile I think I had pretty much the same problem Deb did, but it'll all depend on the tone. That is---the answer(s) to Richard's questions.

Just a note: I do believe there are definitely times for not-happy endings. But, man, to get away with them---to make them matter---they have to be set up just right.

WOK::
Hi there! Sorry for the slightly late reply, Richard. This is a short reply I can give to more indepth answers if you want but wanted to get back to you with a few general answers first. Hope I'm not too confusing!

The story itself has evolved (stories do that I guess) somewhat. I think more thriller than mystery - since thrillers are better attention grabbers (according to Hitchcock at least, or so I've heard lol). So direction wise, 70-75% thriller and 30-25% mystery? My main bad guy's, Azarkin, back story is more less shrouded in mystery. That way it's easier for him to control the things he does.

As far as angels...technically Azarkin and his "brethren" - the "deities" that trapped him originally - are angels in some form. The main characters also can be angels to each other - depending on the definition lol.

There's certainly a deal of teshuva. For Krim (Main protag) it could be more conscience and Gwen (love interest) is literally redeemed. My original intent is that Krim dies for her (though it could change) so his death must weight on her conscience. Assuming I don't change that premise there could be a catch-22 for Gwen if Krim dies.

The erotic. I actually have a few chapters written (about 20 pgs or so). There is one sex scene so far (had to cut another out between Gwen and Gerard) involving Krim and a random girl. Krim basically sees Gwen's face when he's with the girl and accidentally calls out her Gwen, prompting the girl to correct him. So, yes, there should be a few sex scenes between K and G. I wouldn't necessarily say they're black leather and whips; it's not that kind of story lol.

SAT::
All right, you have quite a story here! Let me see if I can help you out by relaying the questions I have about it. Smile

This is important because Krim is supposed to be the type who's flawless when it comes to things he doesn't care about. The things he cares for he can't really protect; he freezes.
A character make-up that definitely grabs my interest. I can especially see how it’s going to play into the whole of the plot. I can see a lot of Krim doing his best to not care about Gwen just so he can go about saving her. Should make for some great, hooking-the-reader-along tension.

The main bad guy approaches her and offers her her life back with her wildest fantasies - to become a successful writer - for a decade, after which he will possess her body.
The “deal” she makes intrigues me, in a the very best way; makes me want to read about it. I do have to point this out, though: there are an awful lot of books about writers---to the point that every time I see it, now, I think “author insertion” whether or not it’s true.
I’m curious how her ups and downs in confidence are going to go. If she’s actually neurotic, she could get annoying to the reader. It’ll have to be carefully done, but it can be pulled off. It all depends on well she plays off Krim and how well he “manages” her.

Gerard's a foil for Gwen and Azarkin.
Great layering on Gerard’s purpose, both as an obstacle in the love story path, and the foil bit here, plus a chance for demonstration of Azarkin’s powers. It looks like it’ll fall right into place. Excellent character.

He can create doppelganger-type souls to replace with the souls of the dying who accept his gifts.
Sounds like you got a good, well-rounded antagonist here, playing off at least a couple of Satan-like myths. Very cool. I am, however, confused about this sentence I highlighted. Does this mean that Gwen does not possess her “true” soul? And if that’s true, is it really even her? (And, truly, it would be awesome if these were questions/concerns I had while reading the story.)

To achieve this end he must have control of the Nietzschaan/Human Superman (confident genius type)
Why, though? Is there something further special about Krim? I think there are quite a few people like Krim, at least in what’s laid out as Azarkin’s specifications. So he must have tried this many, many times before. What’s kept him from succeeding? What about this instance makes us worry that it will work this time? (The reader has to be worried it’ll work this time, or else, why read?)

He's one of Azarkin's henchmen.
Sounds like you’re going to be figuring Michael out as you go, but I had to say I love that he’s named after an archangel, and yet a henchman for a Satan-like figure.

Yeah, almost forgot, I'm trying to give the story a film noir-ish feel.
From what I’ve read, that shouldn’t be difficult at all. Wink

-Krim kills Michael?
Would really depend on how it’s going, ay? I mean, if we need to see Krim get a lick in to make us feel he’s got a chance in this novel, I say yeah, kill Michael. But if we need some added doubt to the success of the goal, you could have some circumstance where Michael is pulled away. Or even a stalemate could be useful; some particular circumstance brings Michael up short, ending with the classic, “I’ll get you, my pretty” ending to the scene.

-Gwen and Krim search out Azarkin’s hideaway.
I am very curious about that---how they find out, how they find out about the knife, and how they find it. Where do you go to find this stuff out? Hey, instead of killing Michael, maybe they take him prisoner and find out from him? Either one of them sociopathic enough to torture information out of the henchman?
The thing is, it’s always hard for me to believe this kind of information is just lying around in a book somewhere, and yet, that’s how it always seems characters find this kind of information. Either that, or their background has the information somehow falling in to their laps---and I don’t see how either one would have that. Unless… Unless maybe Gwen got some kind of clues when she made her deal. Something that gave them a lead. Could even be something she’s been obsessing about since her deal with Azarkin.

Krim stabs Azarkin but finds out that he and Gwen misinterpreted the ancient scrolls
Ohhh, ancient scrolls. Forgot about that bit. Still, everything I said before stands. (How, oh how, did these two know where to look for such things, how did they get their hands on them, and how can they read the language they must be in?)

one of Azarkin’s own doppeldaggers must be the one that stabs Azarkin
Meaning…Gwen should have done it? That is, is she carrying around a ---wait. You have “doppeldagger” here. Is that just the term for Azarkin’s doppelgangers? Still, I’m confused---about whether or not Gwen’s got her “real” soul, whether the doppelgangers Azarkin creates have to stab him, or if a doppelganger of Azarkin’s own soul has to stab him.



The Ending

Okay, I think I’ve pinned down what was really bothering about your ending. Full circle is cool, and it fits my interpretation of what you’ve said you’re trying to do. There has to be growth, though, or else readers (readers like me, anyway) feel cheated and never read another of your books. The thing is, you’ve got the basis for that: the action is the same, but the motivation is different.

My problem, it turns out, has to do with him knocking her out with alcohol and leaving a note---after she says she’s made peace. It makes his actions unnecessary, and so him doing them makes him seem like (for lack of a more diplomatic-to-the-writer term) an ass.

Was Krim’s deal with Azarkin to have Gwen’s deal broken in exchange for whatever Azarkin needs from Krim? I mean, that would be interesting; set the world up for destruction, but will have saved the girl (who dies anyway, right? Only with her soul.) That’s very noir-ish.

In essence, why can’t Krim just wait until she goes to sleep before he leaves? Or hey, if he can’t because she refuses to go to sleep, why not an understanding? This time, she gets to watch him leave. It’s still full circle, but with a little change that shows growth.


The lingering thing I’m stuck on now is Azarkin’s doppelgangers. I mean, is that what Krim’s going to be now? So, like, he would be able to kill Azarkin now? If that’s true, I wouldn’t get the feeling it was a set-up for a sequel so much as a hope. Especially if Krim has the thought/realization at the end, there.



Overall, very cool premise. I like the sort of thing your going for in tone, and I’m a big fan of ancient evil god-like critters messing stuff up. Plus, I’m big on redemption stories. On top of all that, I’m a character person and it looks like you’re going to have some good ones. The not-happy ending should lend to making it powerful story, if it’s tied together just right. Wink

And I’m all ready to discuss more, if need be. Bigsmile

Chy

LYN::
Again, WOK, following the thread and throwing in my two cents.

The biggest problem I can see with it is in terms of characterization. I don't feel particularly sympathetic to either protagonist. Krim seems cold and inconsiderate. Why did he just walk out on his fiance with no warning? You say "he crumbled under the pressure", but just saying it doesn't really explain it for me. I know a lot of details will come out about Krim once you're writing the story, but I'm just warning you that you'll need to have a good explanation for this behavior if you want readers to stay with him.

Gwen, too, isn't the most sympathetic character as you've described her. However, if you show me what she was like with Krim, before she tries to commit suicide, it might make me more inclined to be on her side, if she's a strong woman (non-neurotic). It's a delicate balancing act: you'll need to make me feel bad about what Krim did to her without making him seem like a bad guy for doing it.

All right; Chy will probably say that I'm not giving you a chance. I'm just trying to give you points to think about when you sit down at the keyboard. Let me go on with plot details, instead. (I do think you've done well with the antagonist, Azarkin. He sounds like a formidable yet defeatable villain.)

OK, in Part I, you've got Gwen getting back together with Krim as per Michael's guidance. So where's Gerard in all this? You've listed him as a major character, yet you don't mention him in the plot outline. Why not? What, exactly, does he do specifically--I don't mean just "be a foil"? Does Gwen break up with him, or does she sneak behind his back? That could be interesting.

Re Krim killing Michael: I think it might be better to have him get away, to be a threat later. For instance, in Part 2 when Gwen and Krim are seeking for Azarkin's hideaway and the knife. You need some kind of obstacle there. Could be Michael, could be Gerard, or both. Working together or separately. Something to make it harder for our heroes.

In Part 3, you say that Gwen and Krim "have their own personal climax". I'm unsure from the sentence what you mean by this: is it a fight, or a love scene, or something else? It sounds as if it's an important scene, either way. Also, when you mention "one of Azarkin’s own doppeldaggers", did you mean to type "doppelgangers", or is this something new? A special knife? I don't mean to sound stupid; I'm just not sure. If it's "doppelgangers", then you could have a setup for having Gwen kill Azarkin, for real. That might be how she finds out she's a doppelganger, not a "real" soul. I'm just making suggestions, if you wanted to go this route.

I'm afraid I have to join the chorus in voicing my unhappiness with the ending. I might swallow Krim's sacrifice if Azarkin had been killed, but as it is, it just seems as if nothing's been resolved and the bad guys have (mostly) won. That makes me sad. Unless Gwen sought out Azarkin and saved Krim by stabbing him. (I guess you can tell I really like this idea.)

As I told Loreli, I don't mean to sound too critical, especially since my own outline is a lot less detailed than yours. I just hope I've offered some helpful suggestions. Good luck with the novel!

Lynn

WOK::
Hi Lynn. Thanks for the comments. I'll try to answer a few of them here now, and the rest later this weekend.

The biggest problem I can see with it is in terms of characterization. I don't feel particularly sympathetic to either protagonist. Krim seems cold and inconsiderate.
Krim's really supposed to be a composite between Tony Stark (Iron Man) and Tim Riggins (Friday Night Lights). Incidentally, I'm writing the character with the guy that played Tim Riggins in mind. Both protags are no older than 30, at most. I don't really see K as an Errol Flynn (goodie goodie guy) but he'll literally go to the end of the world for someone; specifically Gwen.

Why did he just walk out on his fiance with no warning?
Short version, he didn't know how to react. The confident Gwen is inspired from the Vesper Lynd character (Casino Royale). When G's sister dies, G makes an 180 degree turn. Short aside: I know someone who's had a very difficult childhood (Gwen's basically an orphan and mother figure for her sis) who comes of very self assured, but has the tendency of bad relationships where she basically completely submissive to the guys she dates. K is the first guy she dates with whom she doesn't submit to. After her sister dies G needs to lean on someone. It throws K off. In fairness to Gwen, she expects K to be there. In fact, K proposes to G because G is there for him when K's parents die. She expects the same from him but doesn't get it.

in Part I, you've got Gwen getting back together with Krim as per Michael's guidance. So where's Gerard in all this?
Gerard is killed by Michael. I could change this but that's how it's played out in my mind. This is to give a precise illustration of how Azarkin comes to his "victims". Also, Michael thinks it's the quickest way to get Gerard out of the picture. Gerard is supposed to be referenced later on in the book sort of as achieving huge success as a writer - thanks to his deal with A. Again, showing of the "bargain process".

You've listed Gerard as a major character, yet you don't mention him in the plot outline. Why not?
First time doing an outline like this. I should have. Hope to remedy that Wink.

Does Gwen break up with Gerard, or does she sneak behind his back? That could be interesting.
Gerard gets killed and goes on to huge success (I think? Any thoughts?). I can't see G cheating on him. What she longs for is really the type of love she had with K when they were engaged. When the story opens (when K shows up to G's book signing, she is engaged to Gerard).

In Part 3, you say that Gwen and Krim "have their own personal climax". I'm unsure from the sentence what you mean by this: is it a fight, or a love scene, or something else? It sounds as if it's an important scene, either way.
It is supposed to be a major scene between them. They have to clear up whatever is between them before doing battle with, what is in effect, a mystical demon...possibly the devil. Krim chastises G for (1) her suicide and (2) for chickening out at the last moment. G goes after K that he walked out on her.

Now there is a back story to K and Azarkin. First the way Azarkin works: He gets a sense of every person when they are dying. He can come to them only at that split moment when the person's heart has stopped but the brain still functions via electrical signals and whatnot. So Azarkin can approach people when they are in need of a defibrillator lol.

Now Azarkin comes to those he senses have special gifts -aka Christopher Hawkings' IQ, Tom Brady's abilities with a football, William Jennings Bryant's oratory skills, G's literary skills, etc. But Azarkin can't really look into your past (can't tell that G was engaged to K). He came to K because he sensed logic and math skills. Azarkin will always introduce himself right off the bat; telling people who you are tends to comfort them to an extent.

When K left G, he went sailing...rich boys will be rich boys I guess! He crashed his yacht off some coast and Azarkin approached him. He sensed that K was the "chosen" guy to set him free and offers him a bunch of gifts. But Krim's "special" so he's supposed to have courage to "face death" and not be afraid, whatever lol. So K rebuffs him, basically says no. Basically, he messed up with his ship and he'll face the consequences. Enter the coast guard that resuscitates him. But Azarkin now knows Krim is the One he needs. Krim also starts building a library on whatever he can find about Azarkin. And Azarkin has Michael follow K for the next 8 years. HERE's where the story starts. Michael follows him into the book store and notices Gwen is taken aback by Krim's presence there. Michael takes pictures, flies out to Africa, goes to the hideout, shows Azarkin the info. Azarkin decides to follow up on "the lead". He installs Michael as Gwen's new head of publishing. He's able to do this cause a lot of powerful people in the world are his doppelgangers!


The rest of your questions I'll answer in another post. Hope this wasn't too much of an info dump. Apologies if it was.

Again, thanks for the comments. And the more grilling I get, the better!

SAT::
I would apologize for jumping tracks and coming into the discussion between the two of you, except that this is what is supposed to happen. Bigsmile + Pthb

Krim's really supposed to be a composite between Tony Stark (Iron Man) and Tim Riggins (Friday Night Lights).
You've made this a bit of a concern for me. I'm hoping you so often describe your characters in terms of other characters just for simplicity's sake. If Krim is nothing but a composite of Tony Stark and Tim Riggins, (and if other characters are only similar composites), the first thing you may need to do is back up and really think about each character as an individual and not a Frankenstein's monster composite of other characters. Really dig in and ask what makes them different. Ask them what makes them worth writing about. There's already a Tony Stark. There's already a Tim Riggins. Why does there need to be a Krim? You know what I'm saying?
A composite of characters that have interested you is a good place to start, I think. But you have to go beyond it. You have to go so far beyond that you're no longer comfortable describing him as a composite of Stark and Riggins, but only as Krim. (And the same goes for the other characters you can easily sum up by pointing out some other character out there.)
And dude, I apologize if you have gone beyond and are just falling back on the original composite in order to describe him quickly and easily. It's just that you've used this method of describing a few times now and...I was concerned. Smile

Gerard is supposed to be referenced later on in the book sort of as achieving huge success as a writer
In a post-mortem sort of way, or is his body now inhabited by a doppelganger? (The first way makes sense; the second way would be hella cool---could definitely be some cool conflicts, discomfort and such, using that, if Krim and Gwen run into him now and then.)

But Azarkin now knows Krim is the One he needs.
Ah-ha! Pertinent back-story! Cool! I would also imagine, after Krim's rebuffing, and Azarkin knowing who he is, Azarkin makes special sure he lives.

Krim also starts building a library on whatever he can find about Azarkin.
Ah-ha pt 2! All right. Cool. That makes sense, especially with Krim's logical...ness.

WOK::
Hi Chy,

I'm hoping you so often describe your characters in terms of other characters just for simplicity's sake.
Essentially yes. It makes it easier. I also use it as a way to reassure my self that specific traits can come off as sympathetic. For example Iron Man pulls off the rich, party dude, turned cocky hero decently well; Casino Royale pulled off the whole self-asured, almost inapproachable love interest with dark secret well enough. So referring to other characters is as much for my benefit as it is to highlight traits when I'm brainstorming (idea of an outline afterall!)

I admit, though, "composite" is probably not the best word to use since Krim / Gwen only share a trait or two with Stark/Riggins/Lynd. But "composite" is basically my word of the week so I'm forcing it wherever lol. "Precipice" and "adroit" too. Awesome words. Should be used more often damit!

SAT::
"Adroit" is one of my faves. I have my words like that, too, except they're generally not as cool.

Like, "Outstanding!"

A few years ago, though, it was "purl." And I had a friend who thought I'd made it up and was trying to "make it a real word" by using it so much. *Laugh*

SAT::
Chy will probably say that I'm not giving you a chance
C'mon, Lynn, give her a chance!

What? I had to say it. *Laugh* Nooooo; good points, all around. You brought up things that made me say, "Wow, why didn't I notice that?"

Like this: However, if you show me what she was like with Krim
And this: So where's Gerard in all this?

WOK::
Hi Chy! Thanks for the comments first off!

I do have to point this out, though: there are an awful lot of books about writers---to the point that every time I see it, now, I think “author insertion” whether or not it’s true.
the author part I need because it sets up a pretty good atmosphere for them to meet in - at her book signing. Also I can play off/contrast K's rationale and technical side with G as a writer. And, plus, she can use her knowledge of plots to reverse engineer (so to speak) things about Azarkin. Think Joseph Campbell in a way.

Gerard's a foil for Gwen and Azarkin.
Another role for Gerard is to illustrate that Gwen as sympathetic.

I have it that Michael kills Gerard so that Gwen can just go and seduce Krim w/out worrying about Gerard. The scene is: Michael originally enters the book as the new head of Gwen's publisher - like Putnam&Son. So, Michael breaks into G & Gerard's apartment. Finds Gerard sleeping with a woman, sends the woman away. Gerard is pissed at Michael. M ignores Gerard and just tells him he needs to let Gwen go. Michael doesn't explain the details that there are forces bigger than Gerard at work because Michael doesn't feel the need to. Anyway Michael kills Gerard; Gerard gets a deal from Azarkin. Gwen comes to the apartment, sees that Gerard is dead. She genuinely blames her self for what happens to Gerard, even though the guy is as big a d*ck as he is. POINT: Gwen really doesn't want anyone to die for her (in any way).

Does this mean that Gwen does not possess her “true” soul
Eventually. Once her contract of 10 years runs out. Azarkin will create a soul for her body. That soul which he puts in her will push out Gwen's soul. The human soul, in my story, can't survive w/out its body. So Gwen's destiny is to be a shell of who she was. Her body is supposed to be taken over. That's what Krim is going to try to prevent from happening.

Also, Michael is an illustration of what awaits Gwen. He was basically some dude, with some talent, who got in a life/death situation. Azarkin took notice, gave him a similar deal that Michael took. A number of years passed and Azarkin came and collected Michael's body.

Sounds like you’re going to be figuring Michael out as you go, but I had to say I love that he’s named after an archangel, and yet a henchman for a Satan-like figure.
Well there are parts where Michael fits nicely, but I am figuring him out as I go along to an extent. You're absolutely right on the name; it's very much intentional!

My problem, it turns out, has to do with him knocking her out with alcohol and leaving a note---after she says she’s made peace. It makes his actions unnecessary, and so him doing them makes him seem like (for lack of a more diplomatic-to-the-writer term) an ass.
Well she always thinking that he only failed to save her. The thought that he dealt his life away doesn't cross her mind. This is mainly because of who Krim is. Krim is supposed to be very individualistic. There's a part early in the book (before the seduction begins) where Krim is lying in bed with a friend-with-benefits and he tells her that he doesn't believe in love because numerically (logically) it doesn't seem possible. Of course he gets proved wrong (Gwen).

And once Krim finds out the connection between her and Azarkin, he does chastise her once or twice about (1) suicide over him; again he refuses to acknowledge love and (2) being cowardly and chickening out of the consequence of suicide by taking a deal with Azarkin. It's the only time that K&G really lock horns.

Was Krim’s deal with Azarkin to have Gwen’s deal broken in exchange for whatever Azarkin needs from Krim?
Yes. Where Azarkin gave Gwen 10years, he gives Krim a weekend only. There is a reason for this that i forgot to insert in the outline - have to do that Wink.

In essence, why can’t Krim just wait until she goes to sleep before he leaves
He tries. She wakes up, follows him around the house and confronts him. He earnestly feels it's safer/easier on Gwen if he leaves during the night.

Or hey, if he can’t because she refuses to go to sleep, why not an understanding?
He doesn't think she'd let him go if she knew the truth.

I mean, is that what Krim’s going to be now?
Yes.

So, like, he would be able to kill Azarkin now? If that’s true, I wouldn’t get the feeling it was a set-up for a sequel so much as a hope.
Pretty much. I like the idea of leaving it with hope at the end (my original idea was having a sequel with G trying to save K but I think I like this idea more lol.

SAT::
She genuinely blames her self for what happens to Gerard, even though the guy is as big a d*ck as he is.
Dude, yeah, definitely. Should be interesting to see her struggling with Gerard (or anyone) dying just to "free" her. Good chance to bring out some character depth and dimension. This is not something, I imagine, that will just "go away," either---but something that haunts her throughout. Even if he was a dick, to know someone had to die to free you---because you couldn't free yourself, even from someone like that---has got be killer.


Once her contract of 10 years runs out. Azarkin will create a soul for her body
Ohhh, okay, I get it now. Thanks for clarifying. Sounds cool. *Cool*


He doesn't think she'd let him go if she knew the truth.
Yeah, I understand that, I just---I don't know. It still doesn't sit well with me. But then.... I don't know. It's possible that in the actual writing of the scene, it would "be right." Feel right. However you want to say that. If you're really sticking to the idea, especially, it makes me think you have a clear idea of how it goes, which makes me think there's a good chance it'll look much better in the execution.

I like the idea of leaving it with hope at the end (my original idea was having a sequel with G trying to save K but I think I like this idea more lol.
I like this way better, too! (Then again, it also leaves things open for a sequel, just in case you get an awesome idea for one. *Delight*)

Chy


LOR::
I am re-reading this. I have read it twice and am making notes that I hope to post very soon.

I swear I will have something before the end of the week....lol

Loreli::

ok. I told you I would get back here...so here goes!

Characters:

Gwen- Although having one of my favourite names...if it is in fact spelled out, I have no sympathy for her. How can you do that (selling your soul for time on earth) and then decide "oh no, what have I done??!!" and try to get out of it. It's not like it should have been a mystery, expecially if it sounds like it's a modern story. Maybe if the guy, or minion, came to her in that in-between time and pretended to be an angel, or Fate or something, and told her of a purpose that she had to fufill and got her to go back that way. It can come out later that she had been lied to and will lose her soul. As it stands...no sympathy from this reader...sorry :(

Azkarin- Interesting background. Is he pulled from any specific Mythos? Does he look human? Can he MAKE himself look human in that in-between or do people seem him for a monster? And is there a reason that you picked Africa for his hideout? It may not be vital to the story, but readers might find the reason interesting or quirky.

Michael- (Funny we both pick that as minion names lol) If you aren't sure if or when he is or should be killed off...I have to ask, why is he there? Can his purpose be filled by something else or can his part be increased to make his death more impactful? Maybe he's a gloatful but dim-witted minion that reveals the location of the knife needed to kill bad guy, or some other move like that.



Structure-

I have to ask. Why is Krim's life so important that Azkarin HAS to have it that started this whole thing? Will his life free the bad guy from the cave? Will he broker it for some purpose to someone to help get out of the cave? I didn't see that in the discription anywhere.

You have the couple fighting and making up twice in the outline. I think it's only needed once. The first time maybe have it be a fight, but Krim still feels like he must save her and puts the differences aside until the time in the third part.

How do they locate the lair? Is it on a GPS? electrical signature or obvious landmark? Maybe Michael tells them?

How does Gwen know how to read scrolls? especailly ancient ones? maybe got something from Michael who purposefully misled them (he CAN lie afterall) for the reading they got?

Ending

I'm ok with a "not happy ending". Some of my favourite movies have had "crappy" endings. I.E. Pay it Forward ( I yelled and cried at the movie for weeks after I saw that), American History X, & Green Mile. I just think that you have to write that ending very, very carefully for it to have the impact that it could.

I hope my comments helped. I only suggested Michael alot in the middle cause I was trying to give you ideas not saying that I thought he should be everywhere.

Loreli